All About Love: Cooper Raiff on Hal & Harper

This year our favorite narrative experience at Sundance wasn’t a movie at all. It was eight episodes of Hal & Harper, the new show from wunderkid Cooper Raif, who produced, wrote, directed, and acted in the series. Raiff has become a Sundance favorite in a very short period of time, beginning with his debut Shithouse (2020) and continuing with 2022’s Cha Cha Real Smooth, co-starring Dakota Johnson. The multi-hyphenate joined us recently to discuss this newest project, what makes Mark Ruffalo great, and how loving his characters is crucial to his process.

Paste Magazine: I’m so excited to talk to you, man. I was late to the Cooper train. I didn’t see anything of yours until Cha Cha Real Smooth, and I was just utterly and totally taken with it. Taken with you, and your persona, and personality, and your writing. And we really, really loved Hal & Harper as well.

Cooper Raiff: Thank you so much.

Paste Magazine: It’s been quite a meteoric rise for you these last couple of years. Did anybody ever tell you this is not the way it usually goes, where you, by your mid 20s, have already been to Sundance with three projects and working with Dakota Johnson and Mark Ruffalo and Betty Gilpin and everybody loves you?

Raiff: (laughs) I think I’ve always realized and been so in shock about things like that, things like working with Mark Ruffalo . I remember 13 Going on 30. We joke about that in my first movie; there was a whole conversation about 13 Going on 30. I’ve been a massive fan of Mark Ruffalo for so long. But in terms of the way that things get made and the amount of things that I’ve made and what feels like a short time, I think to other people it does feel like not a short time . But for me, even though I am young, Hal & Harper really took three and a half years to make, and it was very grueling and there were so many no’s and there were so many hiccups and road bumps along the way. I think it’s just like when I’m in my 30s, I’m with my partner who I’ll probably have kids with and I think I’ll probably make one project for 12 years and everyone will be like, oh, there it is. That makes more sense. I think this was a time when I was just like, I still am in this place where I love writing and when I write something and I know I’ve finished it, I’m very hungry to get it made.

And I don’t like hearing no. So when I hear no, I immediately go to another person. I don’t have the patience that I think most other people do because when I write something, it feels very immediate. I have to get it out because that’s the way I like to work. Something has come to me in this idea-lake that I was fishing in, and then it’s important for me to get it up and going as fast as possible. I think it’s the only art form where you can’t do that. You can do that with music, painting, with writing a book, all these things. You can do the whole thing kind of pretty immediately. But with movies, we go through this battle of getting green lit. We go through this battle of casting. It’s a lot of different art forms in one, and I try to collapse it as fast as I can. And I think that that’s why people are like, what are you doing? What? You’re so young and crazy.

Paste Magazine: Based on your song choices in Hal & Harper, I feel like you and I might have similar taste in music. Love the Waxahatchee songs you used, the New Order. Everything. But I’m a huge fan of this group, The Mountain Goats. Do you know them?

Raiff: Yes I do.

Paste Magazine: So John’s early albums that he basically recorded on a boombox, and I just recently learned that with most of those songs, he would write them and then he would maybe do one rehearsal and then he would record them. You’re hearing them being sung minutes after they were written. And I just love that he has such immediacy in his vocals in those early records. And I realized, oh, that’s why. Because it did feel immediate and urgent. It just came out of him in the moment.

Raiff: Right. You’re running to this. That’s why I feel like this constant, I need to run to the studio or the booth or whatever it is, but it is just impossible to do that with movies. And the trick that I’ve always learned from people who I look up to, directors and others, they always just tell you the trick is finding how to make it out alive at each stage. Each stage is so long and so massive and insurmountable in a lot of ways, but it’s just trying to make it, tricking yourself and finding the spirit of it each day. And people have told me a lot to slow down and know that you can find that immediacy in the long run.

Paste Magazine: Yeah, yeah. I love that. I love that. Let each task have its immediacy.

Raiff: Right?

Paste Magazine: Yeah. I love that. The second thing that I just thought you’d get a kick out of is I’m friends with Kevin Smith, and something he always says is, if you’re a singer, you can say “Hey, I want to express myself,” and you can write a song and you can sing it in front of people and they kind of get what you’re feeling if you’re good at it. He said, but if you’re a filmmaker, you say, oh, I want to express myself and I need 75 people and $50 million. Right? And a couple of years.

Raiff: That’s like, it makes me laugh and it makes me want to cry. That’s the thing. It is. But comparing those two things is so real. I get asked all the time about how are you acting and editing? You’re acting and editing. It’s like, yeah, when my favorite musicians write songs, they’re usually writing them to sing them. They’re all over the production of it. It’s just, that’s the thing. It is a lot. It is very hard to have all the hats, but it’s really important to me. And the perspective is also really important, but you can have as many eyes as possible while still being there the whole time. It just takes a lot of time.

Paste Magazine: I just really fell in love with both your character and Harper’s character, and I really related to a lot of the stuff that was in there. And one of them was this depressed parent dynamic. In my own life I remember that feeling of, it was my mother in this case, but just they’re not participating in life. You’re a kid and that’s all you want to do, is participate in life. At one point the Mark Ruffalo character says, we’re going to go to Adventure Land Time or whatever it was called. And I said to Michael out loud, oh this is where they’re going to wake up tomorrow and he’s going to say he doesn’t feel like going and they’re not going to go. And Michael was like, oh my God. And I said yeah, spoken from experience. And so I was really glad to see that they actually went. That made me really happy. But I just wondered where that came from in your life. Because you really captured that sort of dynamic really well. Did that come from something in your own experience?

Raiff: Something big happened in my life when I was four years old. And I think that’s where I always say, or my girlfriend actually always says that it’s a show about the pain that we forget we remember. And it felt like that the whole time writing it. Hal and Harper and Dad aren’t based on anybody in my life, but I think I went through a similar thing where when you’re really young, I think it’s deep, deep grief and sadness is very confusing. I think that’s the main thing, is you’re confused and you really want to be told that everything is okay. But when you don’t have a parent that knows that you need to be told everything is okay, you kind of build up these walls. Hal and Harper grew up too fast, but they also just got a lot of blockages along the way. To me, the show is all about these blockages kind of coming down. But I think what happens is you put on this exterior. My girlfriend has two kids, a 4-year-old and a 6-year-old. And the 6-year-old is like, these kids say stuff sometimes where you’re like, oh my gosh, are they like 30 years old?

But they’re not; their brains are very not developed. They’re storytelling and they’re trying to grasp onto these stories. And if you are not there to hear them and to hear these wild stories they’re coming up with, you can’t really help. They need a lot of attention and a lot of listening to where their brains are going and you need to not discount them or invalidate them, but just know where they are so that you can tell them, oh, honey, everything’s going to be okay. And I think Hal and Harper were abandoned in a massive way, and their dad also felt abandoned in a massive way and he shut down. And I think those five years and really the 20 years are this thing of, yes, they grew up too fast, but really, did they ever grow up at all? Are they still that two and 4-year-old that they were when all this went down?

That’s what I was grappling with, making the show. It’s not necessarily about, oh, he can’t get out of bed and I want him to, it’s like, I need answers here. I need us to talk about the elephant in the room. I need us to say that we miss Mom. I need us to say that we are struggling and that something happened. And that’s the only way forward for people I think, is to kind of acknowledge that, Hey, you couldn’t get out of bed. And really, really, I tried to be so gentle with the dad character. I tried to give him so much space for his feelings and for his actions and so much understanding, but also tried to look unflinchingly at the outcome and the effects of that sort of thing. And I think that it’s really easy to reverse it. It’s just important to see it clearly and to acknowledge it.

Paste Magazine: That made me think of another thing that I really appreciated was, did they ever really grow up? And we see them, the adult actors in the child situations, right? They’re at school and they’re acting, they’re dressed in their kid clothes and all of that. I just appreciated the physicality too of how you made especially your character feel like a kid. He is running down the street and doing all those things. And I think that really just added to that notion of ‘have they grown up?’ Are they, obviously they’re in adult bodies, but they’re still in that sort of kid space. And when they’re 22 and 24, they look their age. They are older, but I think that that device does this thing where it’s more subconscious.

Raiff: My favorite scene is when Hal and Harper are in bed and they’re 7 and 9, and Hal says, are you sad a lot of the time? And she’s like, why are you asking me that? And the way they talk about it is so immature, It’s so naïve, but it reminds me of the subtext of certain conversations in the present. It is like they are, how am I supposed to be there for you and how am I supposed to, you can see how much they care about each other. You can see how desperately they’re trying to survive their situation, but it’s like you don’t really have the tools. And that was always important to me. They say your brain develops when you’re 25 and Hal and Harper are 22 and 24, so they’re still really, really growing up and they’re having a hard time doing it. I think it was David Ehrlich that tweeted yesterday that grief makes you grow up too fast, but it also makes it impossible sometimes to grow up at all. And I think that is very, very well said. What I feel the most when I’m watching those adults play kids is you can’t really describe it in a way, but it’s making you feel something about this present relationship where they’re just like their buffoons in their own ways and their storytelling and clinging onto each other and feeling unsafe in their own ways.

Paste Magazine: I was trying to think if there have been other films or TV shows that do this. It’s such a brilliant conceit because it’s one thing to have a flashback where you see a kid going through something that you know is going to affect him, but then when you see the actual actor who’s playing it really sort of hammers it home in such a weird, effective way. The only thing I could think of ever having done that is that, I’m sure you know that scene at the beginning of Annie Hall where the adult Woody Allen is in his elementary school classroom. Were you inspired by any other, anybody else doing this? Or how did that concept come to you?

Raiff: I don’t know how it came to, it was funny. It came to me two years before Pen 15 came out. This is a show that is so funny and it’s very heartfelt, but it’s like an SNL sketch. It’s just literally them full on playing middle schoolers as 30 year olds. But I think Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind I had seen well before, and they do this thing where it’s those actors, but they’re really tiny and it’s more absurdist and kind of weird, but it’s going back in time with those same actors. I’m sure that that movie impacted me in such a big way.

Paste Magazine: I’ve been thinking for a while that I really feel like this era of Mark Ruffalo’s career has the potential to have some of his greatest performances because there is such a gravity to him. I mean, gravitas as well. But I mean there’s a presence to him right now where this is a guy who, he walks on camera on screen, and this guy has been through some shit and seen some shit and is trying to be a good person. I think even in his characters that he’s playing now that are not that, he has to cover that essential nature of himself up. So I just loved, I guess there’s not really a question here. It’s more asking you for a comment. I just love seeing him in this role. This is exactly what he is perfect for right here at this age. Does that make sense?

Raiff: Yeah. Mark was really scared to do this role because of that. It’s funny, if you look at his earlier career when I was in love with him as a 12-year-old, movies like Just Like Heaven and 13 Going on 30 and even You Can Count On Me, he’s playing himself in a big way. And since then I think has, and he said this, he’s a theater actor, and I think that he likes becoming someone new and he doesn’t realize how much he’s always bringing himself to the role. But he finds so many things that are so unlike him that I think really it helps him fall into the role and not be self-conscious at all. He’s got a method to his acting that, I don’t know if he would call method acting, but it’s like he knows how to make things very real for himself. And with this role, we had so many conversations about how it’s very personal and there aren’t any gimmicks and there’s no way to kind of say, this isn’t me. And it’s a little scary in that way. It’s like you don’t go from the trailers to set and have much of a change. And I think that that was what I was always so excited for.

But I think he had a lot of questions and it was always the answer was just ask yourself the question personally. And I don’t know if he’s that used to or comfortable doing that. If he had a question about the character, I just knew he didn’t really have to go far to find it. I think he likes to go far, and when you answer questions about your character, you’re always bringing yourself to it. But it was just a smaller distance. And I think that that’s really why he’s so good in that role.

There’s a scene in the sixth episode where he comes to Kate, and I won’t spoil it, but it’s the kind of big scene where he says things to her. I knew that he’s someone who always, his first take is the best take. Without fail. And he said that. He’s like, just, it’s always going to be the best on the first. I think our bodies are always, no matter how many times we’ve done it, it needs to forget a little bit that there’s a camera there. But he really proved that he was always pretty much the best on the first take. And I put an extra camera for that scene because I knew he would come in and just give something crazy. And we used the whole first take for that whole scene, the two angles on it. It was so arresting. I think it’s my favorite scene that he’s ever done because it is so him and it’s so everything that I love about him. But he’s in a new phase of life. He’s got three older kids. His oldest is, I think, 22. His oldest is in the show, I don’t know if you know.

Paste Magazine: Yeah, Keen, right?

Raiff: Keen, yes. But Mark is in this phase of his life where he’s not that 13 Going on 30 kind of vulnerable. He’s in this different phase of his life where he is more assured, but has a lot of — he’s just the most soulful guy in the world. When I first met him, we went on a hike, and he wouldn’t mind me saying this, but he touched a tree and he was telling me all the memories that this tree has. He was telling me this tree used to watch race cars racing down this track. And I was like, good God, I love you.

Paste Magazine: That’s amazing. That’s the most Mark story ever.

Raiff: He’s just a very soulful guy who knows darkness well and has had a lot of grief and trauma in his life, and he wears it the way that only the best humans do. He remains so open and light, but you can’t not carry around the weight of what’s happened, and he doesn’t shut off to it. And he’s a beautiful, beautiful man.

Paste Magazine: Yes, he is. Yes, he is. What you said about him bringing himself to the part reminded me of when I talked to Shailene Woodley for the Alexander Payne movie she did. I’m forgetting the name, the one in Hawaii.

Raiff: The Descendants.

Paste Magazine: The Descendants, yeah. She said that whenever she would ask Payne something about her character in a scene, he would say he had the same answer. He was like, I don’t know. How would you react in that situation? Like, I cast you because I want this part to be you. It’s that simple.

Raiff: It’s so funny, and I don’t know Alexander Payne at all, but maybe he’s like this too. I bet he is. My favorite question is any question from an actor. I love that. I actually love when people come and ask me like, great, let’s figure it out together. But with Mark, when he would ask me questions, it was like, you are trying to let this person know that it is you. I don’t know how else to tell you. Your instincts are his instincts. And also we can try things out. That’s something so great about film is we can do four takes of this. We can do a take and we can take a break and go do some other coverage or something else. And I love doing that. Sometimes you’re just like, you need that. I’m a writer, so all I do is write furiously for 90 minutes and then I have nothing and don’t know where I am, and I have to go on walks and stuff. And with movies, people look at you like, you’re fucking insane if you do that.

But I’m like, dude, I can’t be in flow state for 12 hours a day. It’s exhausting. I always try to schedule my days where there are things that we can knock out where you don’t have to be in that creative, open, amazing, soulful place, so I can have that break and that actors can have that break. But when there’s a hard scene and someone’s looking at me saying, you’ve got to finish this in two hours, we’ve got a big day. I’m like, well, then let’s cut the rest of the scenes. I’m not going to be pushed into this. This is the scene. And people would make fun of me if they were here, because every scene is that scene. Every time people would be like, we have to move, I’m like, this is my favorite scene. This is the most important scene of the show. This is a running joke that I would always say that. But that is how you have to be, I think to make the special stuff. You have to respect these things so deeply. And it’s funny to have the running clock of making movies. It’s all so wild and hard, but it’s like that little delusion part of me that’s like, no, this is the most important scene, I think is what I always want to hold dear to. The way I make things is like, it’s crazy and I don’t want perspective.

Paste Magazine: I love that. I had a question about the relationship between Hal & Harper. First of all, I loved their dynamic in a lot of ways. They’re very sweet with each other. It’s very caring and there’s a lot of affection there. And part of that I think is like you said, their parents weren’t really there and so they kind of had to grow up fast, but also they parented each other, especially Harper as the older one. But I also wonder, you can see them fighting with being too codependent. And that’s part of the struggle, I think, is to love each other, but to have your own lives. I’d love to hear your take on balancing that relationship and trying to help them as characters to find their own way.

Raiff: Yeah, I think that’s the core of it, to me, is realizing life isn’t about survival, but about connection. And I think that they only know how to survive with each other. And Harper is his mother in a lot of ways. And Hal takes care of Harper in ways that some kids have to take care of their mother. I tried to show that as well. There’s that college montage at the start of Episode Five where Harper’s out on her own for the first time after having taken care of these two boys her whole life essentially. And Hal has to come and kind of rescue her. And Jessie, her partner, kind of rescues her. I think Harper struggles with that thing that a lot of emotionally immature mothers do, even though she’s not a mother. She’s mothering this kid and needs, but she’s nine and she’s emotionally underdeveloped. And that’s been her whole identity is taking care and making breakfast and helping Hal in immense ways, helping him with his essays. It’s just this learned helplessness that Hal probably has. That codependent relationship is the core of everything, not just for their own relationship, but every relationship that they have with others. They’re constantly going back to it and they’re both very, very scared. But the only way to break it is with deep, deep, deep kindness and love. And I’m getting emotional, but how the big scene for me is, I think Hal needs unconditional love somewhere. And I think that it’s provided in that crazy absurd scene where he’s stuck in the tire in the finale and she says to him at the end, if you are stuck here forever, forever, I will be here too. And you can see his eyes are like, you will. And she’s saying yes. And she says everything is going to be okay.

And he gets out and he’s unstuck and he realizes I’m not going to have Harper in this way forever. And it’s devastating. It’s devastating, but it’s not what life is about, to be clinging to this mother figure for all of your life. And I think you realize that well, when it’s an actual mother, you probably shouldn’t be this close, probably shouldn’t be sleeping at my mother’s house but because they’re so close in age, it’s still alarming to the people around them. But it really is this clinging to the mother figure. And God, it’s understandable, but that’s what he needed, I think, is just that “I will always be here for you,” but that does not mean that we need to be this close. And that does not mean that I can’t go find myself in London while you stay here.

Paste Magazine: I love that you’re in a very safe space to get emotional about your characters. And that actually ties into sort of the last thing that I wanted to say to you. There’s not really a question here. I saved it to the end because I think it might embarrass you, and I don’t want you to feel like you have to respond to it, but I would just want you to know what touched me the most about this series is this. I love when I can feel how much the writer/director loves these characters, and Cooper brother there is so much love in every frame of this series. That’s when I just knew that this was going to be a great interview. I just knew that anyone who is bringing that much love to what they’re doing, man, I’ll talk to you for eight hours about what they’re doing. I just loved it. Thank you for that.

Raiff: Thank you for saying that. They’ve been with me for so long. I’ve been writing this for seven years, and they come to me all of the time, in my dreams and throughout the day, and it’s all I knew. It was demanded out of me from my heart that I had to spend this much time. My girlfriend will just cry at the drop a hat because it’s like, I spent so much time with them in the editing room just watching them. And the episodes have taken different shapes and I’ve loved each shape, but just figuring out how to put them into the world was just so important to me. And it was just a place where I felt, there are places in my life where I am in fear and anxiety and all this, but in the editing room, it’s all sitting in love. It’s this place that is so special. And I am glad I took as much time as I wanted with it, even though there are people who are funding this avid system in my guest house and they were like, you need to be done. You need to be done. But it was so great and I’m so glad that I spent all that time, and thank you so much for saying that.

Paste Magazine: Of course, of course. We can’t wait for it to get out into the world and be shared, and can’t wait for Season Two, knock on wood. And you just have a huge advocate in Paste.

Raiff: I really appreciate it. That’s what we need. Thank you so much guys.